The Tyros has been out over a year now and we've seen two incremental updates for it, ie., OS 1.10 and the latest OS 1.20. Do you think Yamaha is bending over backwards trying to R&D new features, bug fixes or extra features in their Flagship Arranger for us Tyros owners? Do you really??

Is it because the Tyros was not the red hot seller Yamaha thought it would be so they can't afford to do R&D on the Tyros' OS or offer other enhancements? Let me say emphatically that Yamaha does have the cash reserve to do R&D for software updates but there has been nary a peep from them since OS 1.20 came out 'several' months ago.

Which leads me to ask the question: Which Keyboard company has the best customer support when it comes to offering OS and other kinds of updates and enhancements (hardware, etc.) to its customers?

To give you an example: I own a Garmin GPS Satellite Navigation device that has an updateable OS in it. I've owned it for about 2 years now and it cost me around $350. Guess how many OS updates (bug fixes, extra add ons and features) there's been since it first came out? There has been a total of "16" OS updates! Talk about being keen on supporting a product!! That's what I call putting your customers first and foremost. Garmin realizes that their success stems directly from the owners and buyers of their products so they seem to do everything in their power to protect that loyal following and satisfy their customers by supporting them through diligent product support.

I'm really questioning myself as to whether I will ever buy another Yamaha Keyboard again. Sure, the Tyros OS is updateable but except for two minor updates and many things still unresolved - one of which is the repeat to Fill function with a common foot controller + there's other bugs and quirks too. Sigh....

So how does Roland, Korg, GEM, and Ketron stack up? Does any one stand out as a company that truly cares for its customers by supporting them with diligent product support?

We've all seen what happened to the 9000PRO owners just recently. Yamaha just swept them under the rug as if in their mind they now don't exist. No more OS or any other updates for them sad to say.

One thing I can say about Garmin is that I would buy another one of their products in the blink of an eye because of the outstanding customer support they offer besides the fact that they make some of the best GPS, Chartplotters and Fishfinders around IMO.

Can I say the same thing regarding Yamaha and its products?? I think you know my answer to that one. Although the Tyros is a very good sounding Keyboard and has many nice features, sound is not everything. There's other things that matter too - like customer support and following up on a product by supporting it even though it may have been discontinued.

Car manufacturers supply parts and even recalls for their vehicles for "10" years regardless to whether its a discontinued model. Should we hold Keyboard manufacturers to any less of a standard??

Any thoughts or opinions? And if anybody could answer my question about which Keyboard manufacturer offers the best product support it would be greatly appreciated. First hand knowledge of your experiences is always the best indicator.

Thanks again.

Best regards,
Mike

NO ! I brought to the attention (back in June 2003) to Steve Deming at Yamaha USA, the Tyros keyboard's flagrantly missing foot pedal triggered 'repeating self fill' feature which is included on 'all' other Yamaha arranger models (9000pro, PSR2000, PSR2100) except the Tyros. He advised me that he forwarded my complaint to Yamaha Japan, but I have yet to hear a further response or see a Tyros OS Update. I'm 100% convinced that this missing feature on the Tyros alone was not intentional, but clearly an OS programming oversite by Yamaha, and could (and SHOULD) be corrected easily by Yamaha via a simple OS Update. For Yamaha to deny a problem and not address this issue is imo simply wrong.

Scott

As is well documented, Yamaha never addressed the bugs in the vocal harmonizer on the PSR2000, even though Steve was kind enough to find a work-around for it.
Even though all the other models worked correctly, Yamaha insisted that the 2000 was supposed to be as it was.
Oh, by the way, they did fix it in the 2100, which should never have been produced--it should have been done by a software update to the 2000 OS. Oh, that's right, they couldn't update the software because the OS was on a chip, contrary to what Yamaha advertised.
DonM

One of my fav topics! Regarding Yamaha, the Tyros has gotten WAY more support than the former "flagship" arranger, the 9000 Pro, ever did. Even when we did get OS upgrades, they were sometimes buggy. At least the Tyros came with voice editing software that we were promised for the 9000 Pro but was never delivered. But that's nothing compared to the lack of support and functionality I am experiencing currently with Yamaha/Zero-G's Vocaloids program, which really doesn't work as it should at all and upgrades just to provide normal VST functionality are not yet available.

Well this to me too is a very irritating subject.

While I have to say that I have received the best support from Yamaha without even a close runner up from any of my other gear, that does not necessarily mean that I am totally happy with their support.

Scott did bring up the fill to self months ago and while I did offer a differing point of view, I was in agreement with him 100%. To me it is unacceptable that it has not been addressed by this time.

It's ludicrious what Korg did (or didn't do with the PA series) and now with the PAX. They put out an incomplete board and the buyers are waiting to get the fully functional board that was advertised.

The PSR2000 fiasco is a "you're kidding right, no company would be that misleading and stupid."

The Motif is most likely on it's way out of my studio for the Fantom X when it hits the stores.

In a nutshell to me, I'm mad as hell and am not going to take it anymore. Cool features and sounds may sell the first board, but customer support will sell all the subsequent boards. At the prices that the boards have reached now, I expect a whole lot more in the way of upgradable things on some sort of reasonably regular basis.

I have always maintained though we need to buy a board for what it is, not what it could be if they upgraded it. Though cool things now and again with upgrades is a, "yeah they support and give cool new little things all the time after the sale." Of course the exclusion being bug fixes like the fill to self on the Tyros. At these prices I do not want nor will I accept jury rigged workarounds, I expect it to be fixed correctly period.

I think the growing sentiment that I have seen alot of here and agree with is that I am no longer going to jump on the next new board that comes out for very few features added and some dropped with a fairly high price tags attached.

Any company that's listening here.....it's much easier and far less expensive to keep a current customer than it is to try to get them back, once they have gone somewhere else.

If we start going to the controller/pc setups......adios arrangers and workstations. It would be like me trying to go over to Macs now after being so entrenched in Windows.....it isn't going to happen.

Take thine heads from thy buttocks.
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 02-16-2004).]

AMEN, BROTHER!!!! Ditto what Terry just said.

Tom

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Bigger is not always better

The lack of new OS's could mean they consider they got it right first time...well nearly. Possibly as per most companies Yamaha are concentrating on designing their next Super Model to sell to you.
There is stated to be a new CVP later this year....meaning a new top end keyboard model usually follows and should be with us 2005. All this is really disheartening to the poor customer. Korg at least do hang on to their models longer, i3 & i30 were manufactured a number of years and the PA's have now been with us a few years.

I have decided to keep and enjoy my 9000pro, sit back and just let them get on with-it.

Graham UK.

Good going Graham. Ditto for me withn the PA80. I generally agree with everything that has been said here.

I think I'm "stuck" with the Motif ES and it's absolutely awful OS because I really like having the breathe controller along with the VL synthesis board in a unit that I can take out of the studio and play readily. The sampling function is so unintuitive that it's pretty much useles to me. The sequencer function is somewhat better, but geting inside some ofn the sub menus is a nightmare. However, the board sounds great, and it has a the breathe controller option, so it looks like it's staying here.

Since I'm going to be setting up a laptop for my softsynths anyway, had Yamaha and Sondius offered windows xp support for the SYxg-100 soft synth ( which includes their VL synthesis ), this wouldn't really be an issue, but like some of their other previous products, they orphaned it.

Korg has a real knack for putting out incomplete arrangers, and while the PA1x is probably a great machine, at it's price, it surely won't be replacing my PA80. I would have thought that the speaker version would have been a good bit less expensive than the "pro", given some of the feature disparity between the two, but that doesn't seem to be the case at all.

Roland has no arrangers that interest me, ( though the V synth and Fantom X certainly do interest me ). Ketron and Gem have none that I don't have to drive many hours to see. So.. I'm probably outta the hardware race for quite some time, if not for goodd, or at least until my PA80 breaks down.

Unless..... I can find a way to implement a wind controller with a Fantom X, or a softsynth, but without physical modeling synthesis for the wind instruments, it would be pointless anyway. Tassman has a physical modeling software, but it pales in comparison to the VL150 plug in. The only other solution would be to find an inexpensive unit to house my VL150 plug in or find a used VL hardware module. I'm not sure what is available to that end, but I guess it's worth a look.

The PA80 is still more than sufficient for a "road" act. I don't absolutely need a PA1x or Tyros, and I'm not buying another mushy key PSR. I rarely use an arranger in the studio any more, and I don't need to spend hundreds / thousands on any hardware to improve a soundset, only to see my latest and greatest become old and obsolete in a year or two ( or less ).

If they want to keep me interested, make a Motif, a PA1 whatever, a Tyros, whatever... that can be upgraded to the next model ( not OS..next model ) via rom ( at a fair price of course ), so I don't have to go through the hassle of buying a board and selling it a year later when it becomes obsolete. When someone does that, then I'm interested again.

AJ

AJ

I was impressed that Ketron issued a complete new OS for the SD1, in fact making it an SD1 plus. I understand they have drug their feet a little on a promised X1 upgrade though.
At least they will listen and try to address customers' needs and wants. Scott Yee requested the rootless chord recognition upgrade and they did it, even though Scott never bought one.
DonM

Prince AJ at Ketron knows his stuff and really cares about their products.
He's a good friend and is always ready to help as is Dan O'Neil....if only there were more Ketron dealers around the USA..

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www.donnypesce.com

I agree with Graham again
Denny

Yes, but BEFORE coming out with a new NEXT model, they had better have honored their commitment to previous model customers FIRST, making sure they've corrected known bugs & glitches on their 'previous' model keyboard.

I'm begining to suspect (having heard no repsponse from Yamaha in over 7 months now), that they've simply decided to thumb their noses & ignore our (mine as well as many others here) requests to correct the 'footpedal activated 'fill self' feature ommision on the Tyros.

Steve Deming, can you give us any update on this situation? I really MISS this feature on my Tyros, especially as a 'live' performance arranger keyboardist.

If Yamaha (Japan?) never intended to correct known OS bugs via flash OS, why didn't they just stick a non flash-able OS hard chip in the Tyros like they did on the PSR2000?

Scott

Don, I agree that Ketron has definitely been the most 'end user' (arranger keyboard player) interested arranger keyboard company out there. Mr Sandro Fontenella (Ketron) 'immediately' understood my reasoning & real world need for arranger chord recognition of what are 'commonly played' worldwide accepted & played (by the keyboard pros) 'rootless' chord voicings, and knowing the value of this, seized the opportunity to expand the SD1 market to include pro jazz players worldwide as well. Even though I didn't purchase the SD1 myself, I believe both Ketron and the arranger keyboard community have benefited from this. I only wish Korg & Roland would join in and incorporate pro chords as Yamaha, Technics, and Ketron already do - Scott

I have 11 keyboards in my studio. I don't recall that I ever heard from any of them after point of sale.
My 2 current axes are KN7000 Technics. I have received by mail on floppies two updates for that board from the Factory Rep.
The Yamaha PSR9000 has received one download update.
Technics, as you know has closed their keyboard business.
PSR9000 is now obsolete though not even broken in yet.
This brings up the point of total cost of a keyboard.
The first cost of 3000.00 is just that. Now add on the depreciation, insert boards, Out of warranty costs, hard drives, etc. I have 4000.00 keyboards in here that are now worth 100.00 on a good day. What was the real cost? Then there is the analog recording gear and the depreciation on all that.
I think at my age these keyboards will be the last I buy and they will prolly last as long as I want to continue playing.
After Sales service is what you get when you but from a small mom and pop company, not a large corporation.
Just my passing thoughts.
Bebop

Hey Bill

I'll give you $150 for that KN7000.

But seriously, your point really hits home. Keyboards are like Cars when it comes to depreciation. As soon as you drive it off the lot so to speak it immeadiately has lost much of its resale value. Our only recourse may be in making our Keyboard buying decisions with utmost attention to cost vs. features, company customer support policies, upgrade potential by way hardware/software update ability on the Keyboard, best sounds possible, and all the other advanced features we need, and then KEEP IT!!!! Keep it, keep it, keep it, keep it!! Are you listening UD??

Keep it for as long as you can or until it dies on you! Don't fall into the trap of buying each successive model year after year after year. Korg, Yamaha, Roland and the others would LOVE us to do that needless to say! And I've come to the conclusion and resolve that my next Keyboard purchase will not be done on a whim but will only be done after excruciating research and firsthand extensive demoing, and it has ALL the features I would want and need and ALL the BEST sounds of course. Then and only then will I buy it and then I will KEEP IT!!! And won't purchase one again until it dies or somebody offers me an outlandish price for it.

I'm talking about Arranger Keyboards here.. I also would like to get a regular Workstation Keyboard too but the same scenario will apply there as well.

Best regards,
Mike

Not everyone who buys a keyboard reads The Synthzone General Arranger Forum. So how would a person know that Yamaha or Roland just released a new keyboard? People fill out their warranty cards with addresses, so the mfgs. have our addresses. I've never received information about Yamaha's after market MIDI file, styles, etc. I've never received a sales brochure about a new product or service. I never received any information or tel. call from the Music shop either.
Starkeeper

I always get a Yamaha newsletter via email...and Korg always sends me their magazine periodicly with new stuff for years now.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-18-2004).]

Our only recourse may be in making our Keyboard buying decisions with utmost attention to cost vs. features, company customer support policies, upgrade potential by way hardware/software update ability on the Keyboard, best sounds possible, and all the other advanced features we need, and then KEEP IT!!!! Keep it, keep it, keep it, keep it!! Are you listening UD??

[/B][/QUOTE]

HI MIKE, you do make good points here.
I want to share with you that even though I was moderator of the Technics Forum and got it going here after Technote closed. I did not buy the KN7000. I had the Kn6000 and I managed with it and did over a year of research on line and with members before actually buying the kn7000. I even had members burn CD's of the KN7 music and mail it to me before I decided. Once the decision was made the next problem was how to buy one without giving the local greed artist 5995.00 list price. After much traveling in the Motorhome I finally was able to purchase this box from Music World in Las Vegas as a total stranger walking in their door and asking the manager for the best price. I was spellbound with the price offered and accepted it on the spot. I haven't seen one sold for less to this day that was new. To find an honest non greedy merchant in Las Vegas in sorta like finding a Genie in a bottle now days.
Incidentaly, the oldest keyboard here in the studio was purchased in 1972 and it is worth double the original price right now according to you know who, our in house Authority, UNCLE DAVE.
Thats it from the sunny shores of Central California. Be looking for all or many of you here May 22/23 for the big SynthZone Jam.
Best to all
Bebop

After much traveling in the Motorhome I finally was able to purchase this box from Music World in Las Vegas as a total stranger walking in their door and asking the manager for the best price. I was spellbound with the price offered and accepted it on the spot. I haven't seen one sold for less to this day that was new.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Wow Bebop,
You are lucky, I don't have that kind of luck.
I can check prices for months, & buy at the lowest price
I can find & next week there all over the place for allot less.

For Example: I spent over 2 months checking on the internet
& calling around for a place with lowest price's on minivans,
found a place that
was $1500.00 - $2000.00 less than all other dealers.
So I go there & buy one, 2 weeks later the same dealer lowered
the prices on all there minivans $1200.00. Go Figure.....
Denny



[This message has been edited by dlstarry (edited 02-18-2004).]